CTA 78 is shown at the east end of the Madison-Fifth shuttle in February, 1954. But wait– wouldn’t car 78 be on the Hammond, Whiting, and East Chicago? According to Alan R. Lind’s CSL book, the CTA renumbered car 1780 to 78 in the waning days of red car service, in order to free up numbers in the 1780s for some buses. This was the only time a CSL streetcar was given a two-digit number, except for work cars.
That’s one school of thought. On the other hand, the number on the side of this car looks like 1781, and according to Andre Kristopans, it was still 1781 when scrapped. It may in fact not be a renumbering at all, just a case where either the car’s paint got touched up and obscured part of the number, or part of the number fell off and did not get replaced, since red car service was ending in a few months anyway.
At left in the background you can see Fohrman Motors, a Chicago car dealer from 1912 to 1979. Three people were killed at the dealership by a disgruntled customer on January 7, 1966. The neighborhood, not far from the construction site for the Congress (now Eisenhower) expressway, is already showing signs of urban decay. We discuss this in our post Some Thoughts on “Displaced” (August 30, 2016).
Here is Hammond, Whiting and East Chicago car 78, very similar to CSL equipment. It was built by American in 1919.
Chicago once had the largest street railway system in the world, and, as such, you would expect it to have a complicated roster. This is certainly true, but there is an additional complicating factor, in that the Chicago Surface Lines was an operating entity or association, a “brand” that functioned as the public face of several smaller constituent companies.
According to the Wikipedia:
Four companies formed the CSL: the Chicago Railways Company, Chicago City Railway, Calumet and South Chicago Railway, and Southern Street Railway. (The Chicago City Railway had a subsidiary, the Chicago & Western Railway, and 95% of the stock of the City Railway and all of the stock of the Southern, Calumet, and Western were in a collateral trust, to secure certain bonds.)
Of these, Chicago Railways and Chicago City Railway were by far the most important. Rolling stock was about 60% CRYs and 40% CCRY. As far as the public was concerned, however, everything was CSL.
In anticipation of the creation of CSL in 1914, the various rosters of its underlying companies were rationalized, and in many cases, cars were renumbered so as to avoid duplication. It also seems as though blocks of car numbers were reserved for the four firms.
New cars ordered after 1914 were, generally speaking, split 60-40 between CRYs and CCRY. This often meant that there were at least two sets of numbers assigned to one type of car, as was the case with the 1929 Sedans and 1936 prewar PCCs.
The same car order might be split between different builders. The 100 Sedans were divided up three ways, between J. G. Brill, the Cummings Car Company, and CSL itself. The groups of car “types” used by CSL did not always imply one particular builder, although they often did.
Things got even more complicated with the 600 postwar PCCs. The 310 Pullmans were technically owned by CRYs, while the 290 St. Louis Car Company cars were split into three different number groups. In part, this was due to CRYs having 60% of the order (360) and CCRY 40% (240), meaning that the St. Louies had to be split between the two companies.
I used to think that perhaps the fans had sorted out the all-time CSL roster into various car types, with nicknames for each. Interestingly, the CSL roster in Central Electric Railfans’ Association bulletin 27, issued in 1941 at the peak of the streetcar system, did not use any of these group names.
Turns out the nicknames originated within CSL, and appear on lists of car assignments used over the years. This includes the “Odd 17,” which lumped together a few small batches of cars that did not fit easily into other categories.
Even then, there were “oddball” series that weren’t even put into the Odd 17 (which actually turns out to have been 19 cars for some reason). 1424-1428, five cars built by Brill but with St. Louis Car Company trucks, are not in the Odd 17, and neither were 5701-5702.
As Ralph Waldo Emerson put it in his essay on Self-Reliance:
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — ‘Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.’ — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.
With that in mind, we have put together a short guide, that can be used to identify CSL car types by number. Since the numbers were, to some extent, related to the underlying ownership, we have also included the company names.
A few things are worth noting. There were no regular cars numbered 1-99. This was probably due to the joint operation of the Hammond, Whiting, and East Chicago service between Chicago and Indiana.
As Don Ross writes:
HW&EC was formed in 1892 in Hammond where 2 miles of track were built. It was then extended through East Chicago and Whiting to the state line and a connection to the South Chicago City Railway. It came under SCCRy control and service was extended to 63rd and Stony Island. In 1901 a fire destroyed the Hammond Packing Co which caused such a financial impact that all but 12 cars were sold. In 1908 the SCCRy merged with the Calumet Electric Street Ry as the Calumet & South Chicago Ry which retained control of the HW&EC. Joint service was maintained using cars of both companies. After World War I the line was plagued by private auto and jitney competition and finally filed for abandonment in 1929. A new company, Calumet Railways was formed, but it failed and was replaced by C&CDT. The Indiana Harbor line was abandoned in 1934 and the remainder of the system on June 9, 1940.
The Calumet & South Chicago, which controlled the HW&EC, was one of the constituent companies of CSL and therefore, it seems an effort was made to avoid car number duplication between the HW&EC, which had cars numbered between 46 and 80, and CSL.
Here’s how the Hammond, Whiting, and East Chicago cars break out by manufacturer:
These cars were very much like Chicago Surface Lines equipment, which caused some consternation among our readers a while back, when trying to figure out a couple of “mystery photos” showing HW&EC cars in action.
Still, there are various anomalies. Even in a small batch of cars, such as the 10 single-truck Birneys CSL had, there were variations. CERA B-27 says that 2000-2005 were Birney safety cars, 2006 was “modified” (but does not say how), and 2900-2903 were “similar” to Birneys, but does not call them such, even though they were part of the same order. The 2006 was built by Chicago Surface Lines, while the other nine cars in the series were built by Brill.
Here is what Dr. Harold E. Cox wrote about them in his classic work The Birney Car (copyright 1966):
What about something like CSL mail car 6? This operated as a streetcar RPO (railway post office) for about a year into the CSL era. The car itself has been preserved and is now at the Fox River Trolley Museum in South Elgin, Illinois. Where does that fit into the CSL numbering system?
Well, the work cars had their own number sequences, preceded by a letter. So, for example, you could have car S-201, a supply car, and also have Big Pullman 201. There were many instances where work cars had the same number, but they were preceded by different letter designations, as they were in different classes.
As we have recently discussed in the Comments section of our post Chicago Surface Lines Photos, Part Eleven (September 2, 2016), CSL had a habit of storing unused cars around, often for decades. (When new equipment arrived, such as the 83 prewar PCCs, the City of Chicago mandated that an “equal value” of older equipment be scrapped.)
In some cases, this means there were cars in storage well into the CSL era that still had their old, pre-CSL numbers. We have included a picture of just one such example here, taken nearly 20 years after the creation of CSL.
In at least one other case, parts of the numbers actually fell off a car, giving the impression that it had a different number than was actually the case.
Car 2859 is another oddity. This was a replacement car, built by CSL in 1924. It was owned by the Calumet and South Chicago Railway, yet it was a “169” or Broadway-State car. Curious indeed!
Don’s Rail Photos has an excellent page for CSL car information. This has a lot more information than can be presented here, and often includes details about individual cars. Although naturally there are going to be typographical errors on such a huge and complex web site, I hope you will join me in saluting Don Ross for creating such an invaluable resource.
Here is my own modest contribution to the subject. If there are any errors, or if you can think of some way to improve this chart, please let us know. Consider this a “finding aid” for CSL car types. If you can see the car number in a photo, you can easily look up which type it is using this chart.
To create this, we have consulted not only Don’s Rail Photos, but CERA bulletins 27 (1941) and 146 (2015), The Birney Car by Dr. Harold E. Cox (1966), and Electric Railway Historical Society bulletin 8, The Hammond Whiting and East Chicago Ry. by James J. Buckley (1953).
You can even extrapolate a few things from this exercise. If more postwar PCCs had been ordered, as was originally planned, the first new Chicago Railways car would have been 4412, and 7275 for the Chicago City Railway.
Likewise, there is a large unused block of numbers after the Chicago Railways Birneys. Does this mean there were hopes to order more Birneys, which were not realized, since they proved too small for such a big city?
I guess, when there are so many factors involved, it’s too much to expect that you can make all the numbers add up, all the time. This way lies madness.
To paraphrase Emerson, since the Surface Lines was perhaps the greatest streetcar system of all time, it can also be the most misunderstood. I hope that we have made that a little easier.
-David Sadowski
Chicago City Railway car 2169 on the 75th Street route. According to Central Electric Railfans’ Association bulletin 27 (July 1941), this car was part of an order of 69 closed cable trailer cars (with double door in bulkheads) built by Wells-French in 1896. These cars were electrified in 1908, and most were renumbered. My guess is we are at 75th and South Chicago. This picture would have been taken between 1908 and 1914, when CCR became part of the Chicago Surface Lines. If I am reading B-27 correctly, this car would originally have been numbered 2129. It was scrapped after CSL was formed. Bob Lalich adds, “I agree, Chicago City Railway car 2169 is at 75th and South Chicago Ave. It appears that the Grand Crossing grade separation project was underway, judging by the construction shacks.” Note that 2169 is an unassigned CSL roster number.
Ancient CSL car 2144 at Clark and Devon, c1930-32. The side sign reads, “Base Ball.” (George Krambles Photo, Edward Frank, Jr. Collection) Note that 2144 is not an assigned CSL number.
Is Chicago City Railway 2503 the same car as CSL 2503? Andre Kristopans says yes. (See the Comments section of this post.)
Chicago Union Traction streetcar 5801, definitely not the same as CSL “Nearside” 5801.
Trailer 8000 being used as a shed. (Joe L. Diaz Photo)
West Chicago Street Railway #4 was pulled out for pictures on May 25, 1958, the occasion of the final fantrip on Chicago’s streetcar system. That is not a CSL assigned number.
Former Chicago Surface Lines mail car 6, built in 1891, as it looked on May 25, 1958. This car is now at the Fox River Trolley Museum. You can see a black-and-white photo of this car, taken at the same time as this one, in our previous post Throwback Thursday (January 7, 2016). To see a picture of West Chicago Street Railway car 4, also taken the same day, there’s one in our post Chicago Streetcars In Color (February 22, 2015).
Don’s Rail Photos says the “Sunbeam” was built by Pullman in 1891. It was used as a party car, later for storage. (Joe L. Diaz Photo) This car doesn’t even have a number!
This old Chicago Daily News photo is identified as being at the end of a cable car route, where horses were used to move the cars around. However, the Chicago Auto Show is being advertised, which would help date this photo. This car is #1325.
Chicago City Railway cable trailer 209 in October 1938. Supposedly built around 1892, it appears to be a replica built by CSL in 1934 using some original parts. It is now preserved at the Illinois Railway Museum. (Alfred Seibel Photo)
North Chicago Street Railroad horse car 8 on January 2, 1925. The occasion was the opening of the new Cicero Avenue extension. This car, built in 1859 by the John Stephenson Car Company, is preserved at the Illinois Railway Museum.
It’s August 28, 1936 on north Ashland Avenue, and time for a parade. One week earlier, streetcar service had been extended north of Cortland in one of the final extensions under CSL. Prior to this time, this portion of the route had run on Southport, two blocks to the east. North Chicago Street Railroad “Bombay roof” horsecar 8 is ahead of the experimental 1934 Brill pre-PCC car 7001. Ironically, the older car survives at the Illinois Railway Museum, while 7001 was scrapped in 1959.
This supposed Chicago City Railway horse car #10 was actually a 1930s replica. It was also used at the Chicago Railroad Fair. This picture was taken by Charles Cushman (1896-1972) in 1949. (Charles W. Cushman Collection, University Archives, at Indiana University, Bloomington.)
Recent Correspondence
Tony Zadjura writes:
In need of a little advice. I am the Chairman of the Jefferson Township Historical Society, Lackawanna County PA. Our area includes Moosic Lake, which at one time had trolley service to the lake and amusement park (Gateway to the Clouds). We have recently been given a photograph of # 409 which shows Moosic Lake as its destination. A question has been raised as to whether the Moosic Lake destination sign has been added.
The trolley service to Moosic Lake terminated in 1926.
Is it possible to give a date of this car being built or first being available for use by STC in service. I am enclosing the photo in question, cropped to show the front of the car a little better. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Thanks for writing. According to Don’s Rail Photos, “409 was built by Osgood-Bradley Co. in 1925” for the Scranton Transit Company.
So, it is possible that this car could have operated to Moosic Lake, but not for very long.
Hope this helps.
Tony Zadjura replies:
Thanks for the quick reply. According to accounts, the trolley ride over the Moosic mountain must have been a thrill!
Keep those cards and letters coming in, folks. You can reach us at: thetrolleydodger@gmail.com or leave a Comment on this post.
-David Sadowski
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Ok. Now you’ve piqued my curiosity concerning an additional order for more post war pcc cars. I had heard rumors eons ago but wonder who the builder or builders might have been. How many cars and would they be a carbon copy of the first 600?
Now for another interesting rumor not concerning Chicago but a cancelled order of post war Pullman pcc cars that had left hand doors ending as Boston’s all electric cars and 25 that ended in Shaker Heights. Any truth to that? I’m going to check with the BSRA as I’m a member. Should I find out anything more I’ll let you know.
Finally as a kid we lived by Congress and Springfield. I remember the Harrison cars and think they were in the 1700s or 1800s. What series were they?
Throughout the 1930s, the City of Chicago’s transit modernization and unification plan called for 1000 new streetcars as well as 1000 new steel rapid transit cars. At some point during WWII, the number of PCCs in this plan was reduced to 800. Of these, 600 were ordered in 1945, and delivered between 1946-48.
The 10-year modernization plan, published by CTA in 1947 and covering the years 1946-55, included an additional purchase of 200 streetcars for 1949, which of course did not happen. No other details were given.
Once the Chicago Transit Board made Walter J. McCarter the first CTA General Manager, there was little chance of any additional streetcars being ordered. He was quoted in the press in 1947, even before the handover to CTA, saying that he was opposed to such purchases and that the CTA had tried to cancel the remaining portion of the 600-car order that had yet to be delivered, but found they could not.
Otherwise, public pronouncements by CTA officials continued to include the planned 200-car order, except that in 1949, it was indicated that CTA lacked the funds to go through with it. This did not stop them, however, from ordering more buses somehow.
The 1951 DeLeuw-Cather consultant report, an in-depth look at CTA operations and practices, called for all PCCs to be retained but converted to one-man operation. It also recommended that, due to the cost of electric power, no additional electric vehicles should be ordered for the surface lines.
All of this added up to no more PCCs, but presumably, if more had been ordered circa 1951, they would have been one-man cars. But there was no cancelled order, since CTA management was opposed to even taking delivery on the final 200 or so cars that were still in the pipeline in 1947.
If you study the 10-year plan published in 1947, even with the 800 cars, the CTA intended to gradually phase out streetcars, to the point where there would be only three lines remaining by 1955, which is pretty much what actually did happen. The ultimate goal even in 1947 was to get rid of all the streetcars, even if this might have meant ordering some more of them for an orderly transition on the heaviest lines. Plummeting ridership, partly caused by a series of fare increases, led CTA to conclude that it did not actually need the other 200 cars after all.
The only clues we have regarding CTA’s preferences were that the postwar Pullmans had better quality parts, while they found the St. Louis cars were more successful in operation. For one thing, the Pullmans were heavier, and therefore would have used more electricity, resulting in a higher operating cost.
Since St. Louis Car Company had the bulk of the PCC market, chances are if the CTA had ordered additional cars, they would have been St. Louies. But I cannot imagine they would have used hand controls, which were something the labor unions had insisted on in order to make these cars a lot more difficult to convert to one-man. They either would have got one-man cars from the start, or would have ordered cars that could be used either as one or two-man in service.
As for Harrison streetcars, I searched through our photo archive, and we have posted pictures of the following cars on that route: 1802, 1812, 1817, 1836, 1844, 1850, and 1400. All the 1800s you remember were in a series called the Chicago Railways/Flexible Flyers. To see those pictures, type the car number in the search window at the top of our page, and the posts with those pictures should come up, thanks.
As far as can be determined, Chicago City Railway never renumbered any cars, so the 2500 and 2700 series were old CCRy numbers. Basically because CCRy was formed in 1858, never really merged in anything we know of, and just kept adding to the existing roster. South Chicago City Railway had its own car numbering scheme, and when SCCRy was merged with Calumet Electric (previously unaffiliated with anybody else) the two groups were renumbered into a common 2800 series. Chicago Railways, ex Chicago Union Traction, nee West Chicago Street Railway and North Chicago Street Railway, was the product of many, many mergers. Even though most of the predecessors were of common ownership, it can be assumed there were multiple car numbering schemes involved. In fact, early on, in the late 1800’s, it is likely cars were numbered according to the route or carbarn they ran on or from, a practice common at the time, but pretty much gone by the early 1900’s (except in one city – Vancouver British Columbia – where it unbelievably persisted until 1994!). As a result, since there were only a couple of CUT series CSL wanted to keep, and they were to be heavily rebuilt anyway, the result was the 1101-1505 series. By 1908 the basic roster had been determined to be 101-1720 CRys, 2501-2605, 2701-2780, 5001-5650, 5701-5827, 5900-5999 CCRy. Later, 3000s-4000’s were assigned to CRys, 6000s-7000’s to CCRy, 8000s-9000s to trailers.
2000’s were apparently intended for small cars as an afterthought. The CRys Birneys were 2000’s, while CCRy’s were 2900’s, since they apparently wanted their numbers to be immediately noticeable. What is odd is that the CCRy one-man cars were 2904-2922, when by rights they should have been 6155-6173, since the CRys ones were numbered in with the regular cars. But CSL was full of odd things that now can’t be explained.
Also, something that should be noted: 2006 was not a Birney. It was a CSL-built single-truck experimental one-man car, similar to a Birney but larger. At the same time, CSL also built 3092 as an experimental double-truck one-man car, again not exactly like the other Sewing Machines. The production order was actually 3093-3118 (26 cars) and 2904-2922 (19 cars) for a total of 45 cars.
Thanks for this wonderful information. Looks like perhaps CSL thought the Birneys too small, and considered using a somewhat larger version, which was built in their shops almost a year after the original 9. But even then, chances are they found even this car to be inadequate for their needs.
As for what constitutes a “true” Birney car, there is some discussion of that in Dr. Harold E. Cox’s book, just as there can be some argument about what makes something a PCC. But he did count the 2006 in his roster of Chicago Birneys.
To some extent, efforts to avoid duplicate numbers in fleets persist to this day. It took a long time, for example, before CTA had a bus numbered 4391. They do have one now, but only about 55 years after this number was last used on a PCC streetcar.
One thing about the Odd-17 (or 19) – these were cars that were built to replace mostly fire victims. There does not appear to be a car-for-car relationship with what they replaced, but the groups are known:
6138-6142 and 6147-6153 have GE 226-A motors. Only other cars that had 226-A motors were 1429-1505 and 1506-1720. 1506-1720 were intact in 1918-19, however many of 1429-1505 were gone, sold 1914-16. Apparently some were sold without motors?
6143-6145 and 6154 have GE 80-A motors. These had to come off 5001-5650 series cars. Four are in fact gone by 1916 – 5169, 5194, 5244, 5303.
6146 replaced 5701. Has same 242-B motors as 5702, 5701 mate, and more importantly, A.A. 6-16 air brake equipment, which 5702 was the only other car with.
3090-3091 are more difficult to pin down, Have 242-B motors, which match 3000-3089, but 3090 has National 4-16 brake equipment, which would match 5303. This would lead one to believe that what could be salvaged was, and parts from more than one car, plus on-hand spares, went into these cars.
(Note that this is based on 1 1/31/39 CSL descriptive list of cars)
Also note that CSL was a BIG believer in GE motors. Of the entire fleet, only the Nearsides, New Pullmans, 1800-1999, 3092, and some scattered Matchboxes in the 1300’s had Westinghouse motors.
Per notes Jim Buckley copied in 1940’s at Division St, these are the “official” replacements. Note that the car equipment does NOT match what they “replaced” in most cases!
6138-6142 replace 2520, 2526, 2584, 2597, 2621
6143-6145 replace 5169, 5194, 5303
6146 replace 5701
6147-6150 replace 2515, 2546, 2565, 2585
6151 replace 2777
6152 replace 5239
6153 replace 5765
6154 replace 2561
3090-3091 replace 1405, 1360
In addition:
2859 replace 2850
6239 replace 2726
1721-1765, 3179-3199 replace cars lost in Devon fire
In reality, CSL and CTA did not attempt to avoid duplicating bus and streetcar fleet numbers at all. In 1944, CSL renumbered all existing buses by type instead of the old series, which were by owner:
1100-1200-1300 Twin Coach
2100-2200 ACF
3100-3200-3300 White
4100-4200 Ford
5100 Reo
6100-6200-6300 Yellow Coach
In the mid-40’s thru 1948 new buses were added into whatever series they belonged to by builder, such as 1400-1600-1700-1800 Twins, 2300-2400-2500-2600 ACF-Brills, 3400-3500-3600 Whites, 4300 Fords, 6400-6500-6600-6800 GM’s, and a new series, 7100 Macks. 8100’s were supposed to be a group of Aerocoaches, but apparently it was determined that Aerocoach was unable to produce a bus to CTA’s liking, so the tentative order was cancelled. Then all thru the 1950’s and 60’s, new buses were numbered into vacant series in the above scheme – 5000-5499 Twins and Flxibles, 7200 Macks, 8000-8849 Flxibles. When CMC was acquired, their buses were not renumbered, but CTA’s 1400-series Twins became 1620-1624 to avoid duplication, and all existing trolley buses went into the 9051-9761 series. GM fishbowls from 1961 and 1963-64 were in the 100’s, 300,s and 800’s, basically amid the CMC series. Flxibles in the 1960’s went into 3000-3875, as there were no Whites left. After 1970, though there were no efforts at any kind of orderly roster – just wherever there was a big enough number group available.
Thanks!
Many thanks to David for the photos and to Andre for all of the fascinating information, particularly motor info on replacement cars! A few random observations:
-car 78, which I think was the only “standard” Surface Lines car with a two-digit number, was renumbered from 1780 to avoid a conflict with a new series of buses (according to Lind’s CSL book). The Fifth Avenue shuttle was abandoned February 22, 1954.
-regarding predecessor renumbering, one nitpicking item is that when Calumet & South Chicago was created from merging SCCR and CESR, its fleet was not initially numbered in the 2800-series. The cars later renumbered by CSL ended up in the 700- and 800-series. See http://hickscarworks.blogspot.com/2015/04/h2843.html for a photo of a (later 2841-2845 series) Jewett in C&SC colors. Other photos at that link of a Jewett in 1915 show it with, apparently, “paint-out” CSL emblem and number, suggesting that the C&SC cars may have acquired their 2800-series numbers around the same time as unification in 1914.
-and regarding motors, CSL was virtually unique (I think) in that it commonly mixed motor types under a single car. A number of Old Pullmans had three GE and one WH motor; car 144 at IRM has three GE 216A’s and one WH 319B. I cannot imagine GE or WH built motors with this in mind but I guess the competitors’ offerings were similar enough that it worked okay.
Thanks… by the time 1780 was renumbered to 78, it was very close to the end of red car service anyway, and sounds like CTA wanted to use the number for a bus. I will update the caption on that picture accordingly.
Look at the photo of “78” closely – the side is still 1781, though the numbers are barely visible. This car was scrapped as 1781. So what actually happened is the number on the end was wearing off, and it would appear the 7 and 8 were touched up at some point, but the 1’s were not, and eventually they disappeared, at least on that end of the car.
That makes a lot of sense and was my original thought. Now we have a real difference of opinion. This picture was taken just a few months before the end of all red car service, so with that in mind, perhaps maintenance slacked off, as these cars were scrapped soon after.
Interesting photo of trailer 8000. H. Graver Co. was located at 3815 S. Morgan. I believe the Morgan St line ended just north of Pershing Road. Was the trailer next to a wye track in this photo?
CSL had a materials handling yard at this location. I believe it was last used around 1954.
Is there anywhere a list of the single truck cars in existence at the time of csl consolidation? (Bullettin 27 is not clear about that)
I assume you mean Central Electric Railfans’ Association Bulletin 27 from 1941. I will check into that, thanks.
I’ve done some research about single truckers and i have a question: where did “csl assegnerà numbers” originated? I mean: did CSL openly said that only those cars were on their roster (and the others were simply existents) or did fans made that list?
If the second, i think that some single truckers made it into the official csl roster. These are 4555-4625 from CRY and 2142-2251 from CCR, and this would also be an explaination of why a lot of numbers in 2xxx were apparently left blank: perharps they found that series occupino but these cars and chise to use it for miscellaneous and small cars, as 50 of the single truckers were then converted into salt cars and lasted until late 30s with original numbers.
Also, i noticed that at a closer inspection, car 2144 seems to not be in classic green livery but a very dirty two colors scheme, perharps the 20s red/creme, this would mean that some of these cars survived in service some 10 years after CSL’s formation.
Another question: were the HW&EC cars mantained and parked in the same stations/shops of csl cars or were operate on their own?
This is a follow-up on some previous correspondence from my blog. I assume there is documentation on what rolling stock the Chicago Surface Lines inherited from the four companies that it essentially took over from in 1914, as this was all highly regulated by the City of Chicago. The list he refers to may be the one compiled in 1941 in a Central Electric Railfans’ Association bulletin, where the fans tried to create pre-CSL rosters from somewhat sketchy information. I am not sure where the cars of the Hammond, Whiting, and East Chicago were shopped, although these cars were essentially identical to the CSL Pullmans and both companies operated on each other’s tracks until 1940, when a split was made at the state line between Illinois and Indiana. Perhaps Andre Kristopans might have additional knowledge about this.